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[Music]

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I was interviewed by NASA at LSU where I

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was getting ready to graduate

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Marshall offered a job and a friend of

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mine it was actually the best man at my

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wedding

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used to co-op here so he was very high

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so I accepted and the first thing I know

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well the main thing for Apollo where

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they were is the early days of the

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Saturn 5 but the Saturn one and one base

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were active one of the first jobs I had

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was with the in the test laboratory was

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the caretaking the s1b that we had in a

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dynamic test and and we do mobile

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testing whatever and our job was the 24

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hours is a lot of treat and make sure if

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it got cold nothing froze next activity

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I got involved in was testing the turbo

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pump that was on the h1 engine for the

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Saturn 1b and following that our section

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was chosen to test the f1 engine which

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goes on the first stage of s1 C so

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spending a lot of time getting test

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stands ready we've modified one of the

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old Saturn stands to start testing early

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and plus built a new sample at Rome so I

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your first attempt deaf woman is

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basically scale-up components from the

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h1 and the first injector that goes in

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the main chamber for the f1 turned out

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to be very unstable you want to test

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that me running I'm thinking you were

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doing fine and all of a sudden it was

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combustion instability was set in and

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they tear the engine apart so they even

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it created that team to go out to

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California and I think Jerry Thompson

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had it is up to look at different

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concepts getting wealthy problems

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settled and they finally then after they

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got the our first engine was very stable

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and we never never had an instability

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problem I worked on the s-1 see when we

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put it in the test and and tested the

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test vehicle as well as the first couple

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of flight stages and they're in metal

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the latter stages of that period the we

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took the old s1 CT the test vehicle to

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Stennis to activate the B facility

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incentives so I went to sentence for

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that and activation and installers work

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in the s2 stage which was being an

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exception tested at Stennis and they

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therefore it was like seven or eight

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months I was at Stennis because it was

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Mississippi test facility back then the

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vehicle I was on was second stage of

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Apollo six which was the second flight

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vehicle and so I was there for four or

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five months while we were prepping the

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stage and getting it ready launch and

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that happened to be the stage that also

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had some problems I was in

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the sensual instrumentation of selfie it

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was collars were all the restrictions

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and the recorders were so I didn't get

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to see a thing my my wife watched the

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launch from a parking lot of Titusville

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band you had a much better view than I

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did I remember looking at the strip

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chart that showed the chamber pressures

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well the s2 was fine and all of a sudden

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made Engine 2 and in his in three quit

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which was kind of shocking and wasn't

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not expected that staged that flight

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also experienced Pogo now Pogo was a

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problem we were for me with it occurred

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in a Titan it's real subtle you can make

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some there weren't that many changes

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between the first saturn v launch

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centers at the second one but it was

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enough to change some dynamic

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characteristics and the Pogo came in and

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and really rattle that stage with a low

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friction to the oscillation after it

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splashed down and we finally completed a

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mission the we went back to hospital and

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started working

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what were those problems and the big

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problem we I was involved with was the

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taking care of the Pogo problem our

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tests and that we were using had a lot

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of vehicles Hardware in it from the

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bottom of propellant tanks all the way

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down to the unit of interface were all

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vehicle Hardware so we were able to

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assimilate all the conditions that it

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would say and they we were fortunate

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that the prevail we have which is a

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valve just in front of the engine that

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you use an emergency's one of you to

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terminate the propellant flow I had a

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lot of cavity space in it which worked

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out to be perfect to be an accumulator

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so that worked up a design for an

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accumulator and we put it in the f1

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stand to test it and we ran a lot of

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tests on that pulse the engine and

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verify that it worked at dampened the

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oscillation significantly the rest of

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the time with the Saturn 5 it was almost

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well I wouldn't say boring because we

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need firing engines in that bed and it's

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rattling the building you're standing in

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it's not boring but we didn't have any

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one memory of that that really stands

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out for me was the news people were all

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over the world and they were in Paris

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and they were interviewed some citizens

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in Paris and one guy made a statement

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it must be proud to be an American right

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now I'll always remember that that

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the first thing we had a mission the

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President Kennedy made the statement

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that we want to send men to the moon and

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bring them back safely so that was

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that's the thing that programs that have

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followed it really suffered from the

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lack of a mission we just continued the

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testing and and did what we could to

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make sure every flight was successful I

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work for some very good people then

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Driscoll was our division chief Carl

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Hamburg was a laboratory chief we

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started transitioning and working then

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follow-on which was going to be the

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shuttle we thought the way to get costs

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down was to reused something I started

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working the Space Shuttle main engine

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and those early days we did trade

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studies and we even had versions that

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were modifying the Saturn 5 first stage

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to make it a fly back booster we

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couldn't do what SpaceX - there because

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it was very large and I think we're a

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bit further down range when it burned

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out so it wasn't as easy to to fly it

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fire it up and fly it back to the long

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being in the blockhouse when we were

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testing the s1c i mean that was a big

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loud booster during one test I was on

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the periscope so watch for something

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going wrong and we had we used water to

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cool the exhaust a little bit protect

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the vehicle in the facility and one of

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them had a flange that was about in the

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middle of engine and during the testing

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its sprung a weight and we was sitting

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there with a cut button but very quickly

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realized what it was and and we

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and we had a lot of criticism

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was spending so much money and a lot of

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people thought it could be better spent

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in other areas yeah it was just

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something you put up with we couldn't do

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anything about it we just make sure that

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we didn't provide them with any

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social issues can

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very alarming you couldn't watch

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television without seeing something

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going on where somebody did something

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they shouldn't have and we've had

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protests and marches and but we were

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still concentrating on getting the man

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to the moon and make sure he came back

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the German crew that was here they were

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amazing they argue like gangbusters over

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a subject whatever but they had one

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characteristics I wish we all had is

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once the decision was made they all

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lined up and marched together I recall

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one time I was in a review that dr. von

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Braun was in and it was an engine review

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and they put a schematic I think it was

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a j2 up on the screen and he studied it

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for a while and all of a sudden he

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stopped the percenter and pointed out a

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valve on the engine that was backwards

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in the schematic there's a check valve

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but he said in that well the wrong

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way and yeah it was a an artist made a

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mistake and put the chicken in the wrong

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direction but he was a sneak picked it

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out after the first full duration s1c

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fire and he invited a bunch of us to his

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house and we sat around and just talked

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and he wouldn't know about all the Pogo

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stuff but we did and verified that the

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method of recirculating propellants to

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keep geysers from occurring

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geysers estranged currency you have a

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tall column of cryogenic particular

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locks and then you have a heat source at

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the bottom like an engine it'll if you

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don't keep it cold enough it'll

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ultimately saturate and then turn it

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into a gas and then you get enough gas

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it goes up the line and when it goes up

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the line it empties everything above it

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until it gets over the bottom of thank

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you vent filled back up and you've got

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this 50 something foot column of oxygen

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moving in fact 1g it can damage stuff

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yes once he had a problem with that

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during one of the acceptance tests

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somebody made an error and did it

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replace a seal and he had a fuel and it

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caught on fire

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and while the tester was trying to

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figure out what to do they neglected to

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reestablish the recirculation so they

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got a geyser that ruptured one of the

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locks lines and they dumped locks on a

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kerosene fire you learn from your

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well everybody likes to say you guys had

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plenty of money cuz you can do what you

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wanted to do and to a certain degree

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that was true there were some budget

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constraints but we still had the money

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to do what we felt it was necessary to

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do the center was very young not a lot

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of young engineers like myself at that

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time and you know we didn't know that we

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couldn't do things you know somebody

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come up with an idea well we try it and

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see what happens where we go that's very

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beneficial I was working on a system to

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put people on the moon

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you know people not too many people have

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done that before in their lives there

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was exciting times everybody was kind of

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excited about the fact that we were

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going to send them you know a crew to

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the moon and bring them back it made you

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kind of look at things a little more

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critical to be sure you didn't have any

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problem since most of the flights were

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pretty much except for the the one I was

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at the Cape Foyle were pretty successful

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there they had no major problems so that

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paid off but being part of an effort to